The film is directed by Truls Lie, and Modern Times.
Francesca P. Albanese (1977–) is an Italian international lawyer and academic. In May 2022, she was appointed United Nations Special Rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territories for a three-year term. She is the first woman to hold the position in thirty years.
Modern Times Review met her for a lengthy interview both in Syracuse and Catania in Sicilia this summer.
Albanese now lives in Tunis with her family. This year, she had to suspend her work and teaching. As she told me, «What has happened in the occupied Palestinian territory since October has become overwhelming, and the Special Rapporteur’s mandate has taken precedence over my other professional commitments.» She also lived in Jerusalem for three years, seeing life from within.
Albanese’s report to the UN in March was about genocide. We discuss, among other things, how consequential a report showing such atrocities can be. How much power has international law really? As we have seen, Israel doesn’t listen to international criticism:
«It’s about the effectiveness of international law and of the multilateral system. It’s not just that Israel is not listening to me or my reports only. Israel is not listening to the International Court of Justice, the Security Council, which ordered a ceasefire, or the Human Rights Council, which requested an arms embargo.
The multilateral system is also turned into a display of ineffectiveness. Many seem to believe international law can work anymore. Israel and the United States are bringing the clock back 100 years. And this is risky. I’m not starry-eyed about international law. At the same time, I believe that a society that wants to live in order gives itself rules and respects those rules to preserve an order that ensures peace and security for everyone, without discrimination. What the United States, Israel and other Western states, with very few states doing what they can to stop it, are first and foremost heading to is a lawless world.»
I wonder if it is frustrating seeing so much and not being able to affect those with executive powers: «I’m an independent expert of the United Nations. So, I do not have executive powers to make executive decisions on policies myself. I advise the United Nations. I make recommendations to member states. I produce impartial analysis. My power is in my voice. That’s it.»
I produce impartial analysis.
And how strong is the United Nations today? Is the organisation really being listened to by its states? «The United Nations is as fragmented as it has ever been. You have UN officials trying to divulge and talk about what they are seeing, the risks behind what they’re seeing, and the lack of action and accountability. But eventually, it’s about powerful states that rule and determine the course of action.»
How can Israel be a member of the UN and not listen to the organisation’s resolutions, I wonder. Should it not be expelled? «Israel is a recognised member of the United Nations and violates international law through and through. This is not a specificity of Israel only. In fact, I don’t think that there is one UN member state which doesn’t violate international law at all – in terms of human rights. However, Israel is the longest occupier in modern history, they practice apartheid and is also committing genocide as we speak. And it enjoys unparalleled support from most western states.»
Epistemic violence and children
We in the West have a long history of ethnic cleansing#; Israel is not the only one. What Americans did to Indigenous people, or colonisers as France and Britain did, was extremely brutal. But as the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe has written about, Israel is a special case. Today, this is also about the narrative that we and the media tell ourselves – and how they cover these atrocities. I ask Albanese:
«Yes, it’s about the narrative that has been spread. I often talk about epistemic violence, meaning the violence in the way knowledge is formed and passed about Palestine and the Palestinians: denying the Nakba (‘catastrophe’ in 1948), denying the human rights reality Palestinians endure, and denying the illegality of the occupation, are part of that violence. Denying Israeli crimes, calling Palestinians names, such as ‘terrorists’, portraying them as a security threat, or savages who are just waiting to hit the Israelis. This violence projects an inaccurate and dehumanising reality.»
Since Israel’s massive attacks on Gaza last October, thousands of children have been murdered. This is also an important topic for Albanese: «The most vulnerable, the most fragile in a society are undoubtedly children. This is why international law is also more protective of children because they are often victimised in realities where they have no influence or decisive choices. Children are also a particular target in genocidal endeavours. The perpetrator doesn’t see a child as a child but as the seed for a future threat. This is clearly evident in the conduct of the Israeli army in Gaza. This is what I studied in one of my reports, where I denounced that Israel has ‘unchilded’, namely deprived them of their childhood, generations of Palestinians – this is another sign of genocide – by compromising childhood, you undermine future generations.»
Impunity and International law
The obvious topic to discuss with a law specialist is the impunity Israel has internationally. They can keep on with their criminal acts against Palestinians for decades without being punished for it: «Israel has enjoyed impunity for a very long time. And it’s because of a combination of historical and political reasons. Israel was born as a state of exception vis-a-vis international law. It was seen as this state created to remedy the horrors of the Holocaust. But we should remember that the creation of the State of Israel was accompanied by massacres, mass dispossession, collective threats, forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and eventually, the dismemberment of a nation, and the condemnation of that nation to exile.»
For Albanese the occupation «is quintessentially and irredeemably illegal. Israel has maintained this occupation under the pretence of security – but it is the security of its colonisation plan. And to do that, it has committed crimes after crimes, crimes over crimes. And it has benefited from impunity within its system because all Israeli institutions, including the Israeli Supreme Court, has played a role in the normalisation and institutionalisation of the occupation and the dispossession of the Palestinians under occupation. And internationally, the United States first and foremost – I mean, I do not excuse Europe and including Norway – everyone has played a role in supporting or merely tolerating Israel’s impunity. This is the reality.»
«We should remember that the creation of the State of Israel was accompanied by massacres, mass dispossession, collective threats, forced displacement, the dismemberment of a nation, and the condemnation of that nation to exile.»
Where is, in the end, the power to apply international law when it is so ignored, as by the United States who supports the Israeli attacks with weapons? «International law cannot function without principled politics. And political elites are literally betraying international law right now, where it is needed the most, to prevent, address, put an end and punish atrocity crimes. There is a complete difference between what predominant politics stands for and what international law stands for now.»
Democracy and rule-based order
Israel defines itself as the ‘democracy’ surrounded by others in the Middle East. Having a high court, elected government, etc. Albanese looks at me with a smile:
«This is the biggest contradiction of that country. But it’s a facade, and that facade is crumbling. The reality is that Israel has maintained a system of governance which quintessentially violates the international treaties it has signed – vis-a-vis all Palestinians, though in different ways. Even its own Palestinian population – meaning the Palestinians with Israeli citizenship have been treated like second-class citizens and discriminated against since the creation of the State of Israel. They have been dispossessed, humiliated, and have been forced into submission. But for the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem, the reality has always been of martial law and full oppression.
The old geopolitical order, based on democracy and rule-based order and rights, has shifted with a public exposed to so many lies, fake news, and propaganda. The question is, therefore, what kind of society are we heading to when trust in politics or governments is increasingly blurred by a system where «might is right»—where someone just dictates their own ‘rules’?
«The United States has pushed for a concept which seems quite neutral and genuinely innocuous – rule-based order. But whose rules are we talking about? We need to talk about an international law-based order, where the rules are set and agreed upon by the international community , either through treaties or customary law . These days, victims are being sacrificed on the altar of political convenience.»
The military industrial complex
We shift to the topic of the military industrial complex of today – as performed or strengthened by the US, NATO and its allies – where the Norwegian General Secretary Jens Stoltenberg heads this ‘complex’ with a rhetorical newspeak where «weapons make peace». So, what about the interests behind it, I ask Albanese:
«I do see economic, financial, military, and security-related interests. There is a book that came out recently, The Palestine Laboratory (2023) by Antony Loewenstein, which exposes Israel’s military industry and how many countries are profiting together with Israel by sacrificing the Palestinians. The Palestinians in this military scheme are like guinea pigs on whom weapons and military strategy are tested and then sold abroad. Israel is also testing containment strategies – as some scholars say can be very convenient tests also for other countries who are seeking for convenient solutions to secure their borders. The cynicism of the era we live in is mind-blowing.»
I mention the documentary The Law in These Parts (2011), directed by Israeli Ra’anan Alexandrowicz, which shows how Israel makes new laws and rules to justify its own interests, followed by abuses and atrocities. A law expert, like Albanese, has also seen this film: «This documentary reveals what I talk about in my report Israel has used international humanitarian law to cover up the commission of crimes. It has wrapped all its military actions into legal jargon to make it more palatable, to ensure it (a pretense of) legitimacy. But, in fact, the crimes become identifiable.
«The Palestinians in this military scheme are like guinea pigs on whom weapons are tested and then sold abroad.»
What about the international reaction to this heavy use of US-backed weaponry – or to the invasion that Russia did in Ukraine? Regarding sanctions and support, aren’t we seeing double standards, I ask Albanese:
«The situation in Ukraine falls out of my mandate, and I cannot comment on that. Yet, the double standards in the way western countries in particular have approached Russia and Israel for their violations of international law, especially the self-determination of other peoples, the law of occupation and law of wars, is evident . Russia was in serious breach of international law: this was the immediate assessment, and then came the sanctions . Here the West didn’t wait for an international tribunal to be established. There was a war of aggression, and they acted upon it. They even put pressure on a criminal investigation by the ICC, which neither Russia or Ukraine are part of. While with Palestine, all sorts of excuses are found to avoid accountability. This is because there are double standards and because there is inner discrimination against the Palestinians , as seen as the Other.»
7 October and consequential ethics
What about the attack on Israel and civilians, done by Hamas and others on 7 October? Could this be understood in the way of a consequential ethics, where the means are justified by the goal to be achieved? This subjugated people suppressed for decades have the right by international law to defend themselves against the coloniser. And 7 October has made the world more involved in the Palestinian situation. Some years ago, when I interviewed PLO’s politician Hanan Ashrawi in Ramallah, he somehow nodded, saying: «It has to be worse before it can be better.» So, what is Albanese’s take on this?
«I could never justify whatever strategy both Hamas and Israelis have used which has targeted civilians – the first initiating attack that did not only have (or resulted to have) a military objective only and then the violent military response that soon revealed to be a war of annihilation. It’s a catastrophe in all proportions. I don’t think that there will be any victory out of this. Gaza is destroyed today. Israel pursued an ethnic cleansing of Gaza through this genocide. There are no gains. No one wins in such a war.»
«No one wins in such a war.»
«Armed resistance is protected under international law, but armed resistance cannot target civilians. And when it does, the perpetrators should be held accountable. Instead, what has happened is that there has been a justification for Israel’s rage and war against the Palestinians – punishing them all, considering them «all responsible». But the people in Gaza have been confined in a ghetto without any freedom, and all the more, a tiny minority of them has committed crimes on 7 October: why do we have to accept the punishment of all of them?
The hostages?
Regarding the use of military force: In June, an Israeli operation to free hostages hidden in central Gaza’s Nuseirat refugee camp was done. It was then reported that 274 Palestinians were murdered, and 698 others injured from the rescue operation, according to authorities in the Gaza Strip:
«First, the hostages – whose pain is unimaginable as they are in the same hell as the Palestinians right now – could have been liberated and set free without any drop of blood. Every analyst has been saying that for months, including Haaretz. Israel could have liberated the hostages in the first week. It opted to carry out an all-out war against all the Palestinians in Gaza.»
Israel could have liberated the hostages the first week.
«Why did Israel do that? Many reasons, including to teach a lesson to the Palestinians. But this has been genocidal. And this time, Israel will not escape history’s judgment.»
The flames of justice inside
Being a fighter for Human Rights, was this an idealism that started early for Albanese, I wonder:
«I’ve always been like that, but I’ve become tougher. I was more afraid before. Now that I have kids, I’m stronger because I am seriously concerned about the world we live in. And with the direction it’s going, I feel re-energised when I see people around the world, especially young people, now protesting against the injustice the Palestinians experience. They connect the Palestinian cause to other questions regarding social injustice, environmental injustice, and injustice against refugees or migrants. Many young people become inspired and sustain the flames of justice they have inside. I am happy to engage with them and would be honoured if I could offer a grain of contribution to that.
Subtext:
How to live with threats
Being outspoken like Francesca Albanese is, and also on social media, can be tough. She has been labelled an ‘antisemite’ and ‘terrorist defender’.
Francesca Albanese is verbally attacked – but also strongly defended – in the media and online. We ask more personally if this makes her frustrated or exhausted – as having a UN engagement like this:
«Antisemitism is revolting. We still have antisemitism 80 years after the Holocaust. However, like many others critical of Israel’s behaviour toward the Palestinians, I am continuously targeted with allegations of antisemitism. As antisemitism is treated not as discrimination against the Jews, but mere criticism of Israel. This is both disingenuous and dangerous. It is used to detract, to distract from the content of my findings. I t’s evident.»
Albanese talked recently in Syracuse in Sicilia to 300 people about her latest book J’Accuse – twice the audience that met up for the same in the bigger city of Catania. In both cities, we sat down for this talk:
«There is another aspect which is very evident here in Italy. You should read the letter pro-Israel groups sent to the mayor of Syracuse to not arrange this event about the book – which was actually a moving and touching event. I’m led by integrity and make no compromises about human rights. I reject the hubris of those who try to silence debate in order not to shed light on what Israel is doing. In Italy the pro-Israel front is quite aggressive and unscrupulous »
«I’m led by integrity and make no compromises about human rights.»
I wonder what her answer would be to them:
«Yes, my question would be: how do you manage to close your eyes over the killings of 20,000 children and the starvation of millions? How do you dare to tell us not to talk or denounce this? So, no, I’m not intimidated. And I’m undeterred too. As long as I have breath in my lungs, I will continue to advocate for justice and the application of International law everywhere and for everyone, without discrimination.»
But what about real threats, as she is a profiled person, reporting on Israel – although objectively and independently?
«This is not different from what anyone with a bit of visibility faces. I do believe I’m more protected by the fact I have become a public figure now, more so than before. I’m wary of the fact that with all the hatred they spread against me. They say that I’m an antisemite, I want the destruction of the State of Israel, I incite violence, and I support terrorism . Also that I do not respect the victims of 7 October – which is so false and so unacceptable. I felt completely broken on 7 October, as I felt any day after. What a number of Palestinians from Gaza did to Israeli civilians, is unjustifiable and constitutes an international crime. Action that targets civilians is not legitimate resistance, and must be accounted for, of course. I have said it numerous times, I have expressed solidarity with the families of the hostages but simply argued that their tragedy cannot be used to justify other crimes. And meanwhile by creating the narrative that I’m anti-Semitic, or support terror, that I don’t care about the hostages, they only try to taint my reputation, with the hope to make me less credible. So far, this has not worked, it seems. But also this is creating a certain hatred against me.»
Albanese also has two children: «My children have resented my frequent absence, or the sense of urgency I have with my work as Special Rapporteur. But they are also intelligent little people, and they understand and respect what I am doing. I want them to know that justice is really something not just for us as a family, but for all of us. It’s something worth living for. When there is a huge injustice – people who have been persecuted for decades – then I cannot stay silent, especially if I am in a position to contribute to the discussion around it.»
I then ask directly in this interview, Have you got threats like ‘I’m going to kill you’?»
«You know that I receive threats. I prefer not going into that though. Let’s say that it’s taken care of.»
I then mention when I met the Russian critical journalist Anna Politkovskaya in Oslo some years back and asked her directly about the risks she took. I said, ‘Are you really doing this, with that big risk? What about your kids and everything, your life?’ She looked at me intensively, saying, ‘I just have to do it.’
And then she was killed. Albanese reacts: «No, don’t put this on me! » I quickly reply: ‘It is risky, my point is that I respect what you do.’ She says:
«You do not need to be a religious person to trust the value of life. Being in our humanity means something . It’s about us as individuals as part of a collective. It’s about us as carriers of values, of ethics that goes beyond who we are as individuals.»
Read Also: An impartial report from the occupied Palestinian territories
